In the process of editing up Cat's wonderful stories for the site, I was amazed one day when she mailed me and "came out" to me as... a woman !!
After the initial shock, it set me thinking about the nature of my site and the expectations we might have about the source of the material on it, and about the assumptions we make about otherwise anonymous authors, artists, photographers etc., based on our own identity and preferences. Up until that point it had simply not occurred to me that Cat might be a female writer, as her stories captured so well for me my idea of the essence of (ideal, admittedly) gay relationships. I examined her stories again and all my previous correspondence with her and couldn't find any glaringly obvious clues, although I'm willing to accept I may have been a little naive.
I came to the conclusion that the source of the material was really immaterial compared to its value and quality. Her stories were completely within the remit of my site, about male-male CP and discipline, so they were perfectly justified in having a place here. In fact, for the future I am taking this inclusive line with ALL material that I want to add to the site. My angle as an editor and sole arbiter of what goes on the site is naturally enough the perspective of a gay adult male who enjoys mens' bottoms and CP (!), but my concern will always be the quality of the things that I link and present, that I hope other people will find as interesting or provocative or hot and sexy etc. as I do, NOT in their ultimate source. You may well find other contributions from women here, whether openly acknowledged as such or not. I may not even be aware of it myself.
It also made me realise that even though this is a gay male-themed site, it is not restricted to being viewed by males only, although to date I've only received one (extremely complimentary) mail from a female visitor, that I know of anyway ! This led on to me wondering about the large number of female writers of so-called "slash" fiction (which I then believed was a synonym for gay male relationship stories, whether including discipline or not) and why they wrote in this genre, which really intrigued me.
I tentatively suggested to Cat that we might have an in-depth discussion about this, as it seemed a perfect opportunity to get an "inside scoop" from the horse's mouth, so to speak (and to mix some metaphors), and I was sure that many people would find it interesting. I am overjoyed that she agreed, and the result is the fascinating document you are reading now. I also approached my very good friend Paulus, another writer whose stories are hosted on this site, as I knew that he had been involved in all-gender CP writing lists and newsgroups for many years and would have come across many examples of cross-gender writing and authors, so would be likely to have an excellent perspective on this. I have added his valuable insight to the start of this discussion.
I'm always interested in correspondence about the site, so do feel free to email me with your own relevant comments on this subject. With your permission they may even end up added here ! I'd like to thank both Cat and Paulus for agreeing to discuss these issues, and especially Cat for being so frank and open on this sensitive subject. Do please enjoy their work:
The discipline fiction of Paulus
What I also find interesting is not just the fact that women write this fiction, from what you might think of as an "alien" perspective (thinking Mars and Venus here !), but that they often do so anonymously, not letting the reader know the truth of their gender.
When I made my first tentative posting in "alt.sex.spanking", many years ago, the very first person who responded, writing to say how much they had enjoyed my posting, and how well written it was <preen !>, was a real live woman. Now this wasn't entirely unsurprising, given the gender and preference breakdown in that group (sometimes I felt like the token gay), but nonetheless I was fascinated by the fact that stuff I wrote from the M/M perspective could work for a woman who enjoyed getting spanked.
And yet, when I thought about it, that didn't seem so surprising. After all, we both liked men, dominant men, and being spanked by them. The nature of the emotional response was probably similar. That initial emailer became a close friend, a reliable critic, a wise and wonderful correspondent, and my first fan. So when I tentatively sent her the story that became Signals Red (very nervously, because up till then I had always avoided writing explicit sex scenes in my stories) and she said: "This is wonderful, this is so damn hot, you must publish it", why was I surprised ? Well, as I said to her afterwards, I wasn't sure that women didn't find the whole idea of gay sex ludicrous. To which she wrote: "Child, all sex is ludicrous. Sex is what convinces me that there is a God, and that God has a sense of humour."
Again, I can see the common ground between a gay man and a straight woman. But I start to see the divergences too. I suspect that the average man and woman do differ in the way they respond to their sexual feelings, and the weight they place on them relative to other things. (And yes I know that in the population as a whole you will see the full range of responses in both men and women).
I think nonetheless that there are certain elements that seem to characterise M/M stories by female authors. When I read a well-written (or at least grammatical) story that includes a stable and loving dom/sub relationship, and has a strong emphasis on the emotional rather than the sexual nature of the relationship, then I would be unsurprised to find that it had been written by a female author. I would be very surprised if any of the three-paragraph "He spanked me till my bottom fell off and then had me 500 times with a 30-inch penis before I went home" masturbation fantasies on Jimka were written by women.
And I think that the emotional thing is the key. I'm not trotting out that tired old balderdash that women are in touch with their emotions and men aren't, but if I were writing a story in the persona of the other gender, I would feel that emotional development was safer ground because I don't think that human emotional response is anything other than human, i.e. is the same for both men and women. I suspect that I would find it easier to get away with.
Sexual response is altogether trickier, because that clearly is different for the two sexes. I'm not sure how much insight we have into how that feels for the other side, or for the relative importance we place on it compared with other things.
One interesting thing in this context is whether, for example, a story written by a sub gay male can work for a heterosexual male dom (or indeed, whether the latter could write themselves into the persona of the former). In some ways that may be a bigger barrier to cross, and one of the best compliments I ever had was from just such a person, again with regard to "Signals Red", when he wrote: "I'm not real comfortable with the gay sex, but that is a powerful story."
As far as "slash" fiction goes, I have always understood that to apply to stuff based on
someone else's characters rather than originals; there is a clear preponderance of women on the
"slash" sites. It may be significant that the favoured series for "slash"
writers are those where there are strong emotional relationships between the characters (e.g.
"Star Trek", "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", most police procedurals). I am
nonetheless inclined mightily to wonder why so many do it, for it is clearly not from a lack of
sufficient imagination to produce original characters. But perhaps that is my own imagination
failing: I've never had the impulse to write "slash" stories. It feels to me a little
"like trying to dance in a room your own height", if I may misappropriate Edward Johnston.
IAN:
Many thanks for your excellent comments. I am sure that you'll enjoy reading what Cat has to say
about these things from her perspective.
IAN:
Hi Cat ! Many, many thanks for asking me to host your stories on my site. It really is an
honour. I've spent many hours working through them, line by line, word by word, enjoying your
incredible choice of language, your humour, your masterful grasp of plot and surprise and your
sheer genius for capturing a moment. I truly think your stories are wonderful. I don't react to
these like many of the
I'll admit that when you first told me, I was stunned. I think I said in my original reply: "WOW !!"
Why use a male, or at least a non-sexually-specific pseudonym as a pen name ? I suppose the simple answer is that in the beginning I imagined, in my rather sweet naivety, that I was the only woman (oh the guilt !) who read and wrote this kind of fiction and got turned on by it. I suspect that might well be why other female writers in this genre use a male or non-specific pen-name.
I suppose I am guilty of a deception of sorts. Though if I put my real name to the stories, or at least one that was obviously female, I wonder how many men would read the stories at all; or, if they did, how many would then point out all the ways in which I get it wrong ? I just thought that gay men would much prefer to think a story they had read and enjoyed had been written by a gay man. Possibly I'm guilty of imposing some kind of prejudice of my own in that respect. I'm not altogether convinced of that, though: I know of one person who stopped writing to me when he discovered I was female.
Quite a few men do send me regular correspondence about my stories and they are probably under
the impression that I'm also a man. One of them gave me some very interesting (and unsolicited)
details about what his top does with a thermometer; it made my eyes water, I can tell you !
Perhaps I just don't have a very ladylike way with words. I wonder whether you will be able to
read my stories in the same way, now you know my gender ? You'll be appraising them as a
man viewing a woman writing about men, and probably find me wanting ! <sigh>
First of all, can you help me pin down exactly what "slash" fiction is ? I saw a
site recently which effectively defined "slash" as being about gay relationships
(Slash Online)
so that has been my assumption up till now.
IAN:
I'm perfectly capable of separating the fiction from the writer. I think it's doubly magnificent
that you've produced such wonderful gay fiction from your female perspective and, if you like,
"fooled" me into believing it was written by a man. As for fewer people reading your
stories or writing to you, I suspect that won't be the case now you're linked here on my site.
You'll be even more widely appreciated !!
I don't know whether you're aware, but Hobbit spanking and "slashing" of the lead male
characters from "The Lord of the Rings" is the latest rage among writers of fanfic.
IAN:
How wonderful !! I'm not sure Tolkien would approve, but Merry and Pippin (in their earliest
un-grown-up appearances in the book) would certainly be prime candidates for a good bottom-roasting.
(As would the unmentionable scriptwriter who murdered their originally quite subtle book
characters in the film just to provide comic relief. If there's one thing that really makes
me angry it's Hollywood "improving" great fiction. Pass me my magic brush...)
I've added the excellent hobbit-spanking links you sent me to my story archive page !
Of course that then begs the question why I, a woman, write stories about gay male relationships.
IAN:
Well yes, that is mainly what intrigues me most, to know why you have decided to write these
stories from a gay male perspective rather than a female one.
I love reading gay fiction, so why shouldn't I also attempt to write it ? It's really no different to writing straight relationship stories. The ingredients are much the same: love, sex, romance... not necessarily in that order. Relationship stories, whatever the mix of the partners involved (M/F, M/M or F/F), are about universal emotions and desires: the pursuit and attainment of that perfect relationship that will make us complete. I believe Paulus said much the same. Men might perhaps phrase it differently, but I think that's basically it.
The bottom (no pun intended) line should be that I'm simply a writer. Really, my sex is
immaterial. I myself don't judge a story or book on whether it's been written by a man or woman
or whether they're straight or gay, I judge it on the quality of the writing and what it does
for me as a reader.
But so far you've only given very defensive answers, that don't really address the real issue of
what made you particularly want to adopt a male persona and write these amazing stories
about gay relationships, and then post them on a gay spanking story site. I know that one answer
would simply be that it's a challenge for any writer to take on the persona of an opposite
and explore an alternative "life" from the point of view of that character, but I'd be
fascinated to hear your own reasoning. It's not something I've ever had the desire to do myself,
writing from a female perspective, and I really want to try and understand !
IAN:
Absolutely ! This is the conclusion that you have helped me come to, and I trust that most
if not all of my site viewers will agree.
However, it's more than that. I suspect it may be a rather complex way of exploring aspects of my own sexuality, and not just my spanking interest. Gay relationships have always fascinated me, particularly male ones. I was in heaven when I stumbled across Jimka, after furtively typing "spanking" into the search thingy, expecting the thought police to swoop down on me at any moment. With Jimka, I got two kinks for the price of one: male relationships WITH spanking.
Bizarre as it may seem, I always wanted to be a man, and yet I'm not a manly woman - no deep voice or hairy chest. Possibly it's denial of some kind ? Rejection of my femininity because of bad experiences ? I have never related to female characters in any genre: comics, books, nothing ! I always wanted to be 'Dennis the Menace' rather than 'Minnie the Minx' and I always preferred boys' adventure books. One of my favourite adult books is 'The Scarlet Boy' by Tom Wakefield (with Patrick Gale). There's a little scene in chapter five that never fails to turn me on no matter how many times I read it. It's the same with films. I don't want to be Kate Winslett, I want to be Leonardo... hmm, which means I'd end up kissing Kate... Perhaps I'm just a confused lesbian or bi-sexual !
Maybe, in creating a M/M partnership, rather than a F/F one, I'm distancing myself from something that scares me a bit. I really don't know for sure. Perhaps there's also an element of voyeurism involved ? You know, that crack in the window-blind that gives you a glimpse of another, more exotic/erotic world ?
This takes us back to that idealised relationship thing. To be gay, even in these so-called
"enlightened" times, is to be slightly outside the bounds of societal norms, and this
seems to apply more to gay men than women. To then accept oneself, to embrace what you are, your
essence, your sexuality, is a wonderful thing; it's something that I find very attractive at some
deep emotional level. The gay relationship then, where two self-accepting men then accept each
other represents to ME something special: total vindication of who you are and your right to
happiness and a place in the world.
IAN:
What a fabulously perceptive way of seeing things ! I've always felt that "coming
out" as gay freed me socially and emotionally in so many ways, although I appreciate that
not everyone is lucky in having an extremely supportive student and family environment like I did.
And after that, it was so much easier to accept having a bizarre sexual fetish as well -
as you put it so perfectly, I was already beyond the bounds of what society considered
"normal". I've described this to other people by using the analogy of my minicab
driving career - once you've broken your first road traffic law, by being pressured to do an
illegal U-turn or going the wrong way up a short one-way street or something (not that I would
ever do these things, of course !!), for some reason the second time seems so
much easier...
It also releases me from obligations, for want of a better word, of fulfilling certain criteria in relation to modern expectations of what women should want from a relationship. If I wrote stories from the perspective of a woman who enjoyed being spanked by a dominant man, I'd have every feminist in Christendom on my case - they'd have a field day if my character Danny was in fact Danielle ! I'd be accused of all sorts of outrages, of condoning the subjugation of women at the hands of men, which isn't true at all. I'm quite happy at the thought of being dominated myself by another woman... A bossy, hard-line feminist with a fetish for spanking would be right up my street in lieu of a suitable man - I uphold my right to be dominated by whoever I please !
Joking aside, I suppose writing the type of M/M fiction that I do allows me a "legitimate" way of expressing my desire to be spanked (and not just for sexual stimulation) and cared for by a stronger partner. Modern women are not supposed to think like that, we're supposed to be mature, independent, self-supporting, go-getting, calling-all-the-shots sort of people ! That doesn't mean I'd allow a man, or a woman, to walk all over me, or hurt me in ways I didn't want to be "hurt". It's not about being weak-willed or unable to think for oneself; it's about trusting someone enough to care for you in ways that protect you from yourself, if that makes sense ?
I'm a total shambles, I have never been able to get a handle on life and part of me just
doesn't want to. Life scares the hell out of me - I've never quite fitted. I'm a disaster at
self-care, I'm self-destructive, I don't eat properly, I don't sleep properly, I drink too
much... No, I want someone else to be responsible for me; I can't (or don't
want to) do it myself. I'm definitely a Brat personality in need of a Top !
IAN:
I think most of us can empathise with that to some extent - I certainly can ! I've said
elsewhere that a strong "dad" figure might be something I would like to have in my
life. Sometimes, anyway. It's hard work being responsible all the time, and it would be nice to
let go and allow someone else to take the strain of real life away occasionally. When I say
I wish that there was someone I could love and trust to whip me back into line then, but who'd
also love me back with all my failings, it's true...
I think it's probably easier to understand why women read gay or "slash" fiction than it is to understand why they write it. Take Jimka's site: I suspect that a survey would show a fairly even female-to-male balance as far as readership goes. What, apart from (in this case) an interest in spanking, draws women to a gay fiction site ? Sex !
Gay fiction written by men for men frequently concentrates on the physical act; no fancy wrappings, no tedious entanglements, no socially acceptable rituals to be gone through before you get to the bedroom, or wherever. It's just your basics, what Paulus referred to as a 'three-paragraph masturbation fantasy'. It's hot, and in certain circumstances that's all that's required or needed. Men aren't the only ones who masturbate, you know ! However, once that need has been satisfied you want something more emotionally fulfilling, and I think that's as equally true for men as it is for women.
That's where "slash" fiction comes in, because it goes beyond the purely physical and explores other aspects of a relationship. I get a lot of correspondence from men (both gay and straight) who thank me for the emotional depth of my stories and describe sentiments and emotions aroused by them in exactly the same way as my female correspondents. There's a great deal of rubbish talked, in my humble opinion, about the different expectations that men and women have in regard to relationships. I think basically men and women who want a long term relationship, and not everyone does, want the same things from it: security, happiness, great sex, friendship, love. However, the importance of those desires might be put into a different order by the individuals concerned.
For example, some might rate sex as the most important factor; that's as likely to be a woman
as it is to be a man. I recently asked a friend of mine what she wanted from sex: closeness,
affection, what ? Her answer was simple - an orgasm ! Some women, as well as some
men, rate sex more highly than others; it's a personal rather than a gender thing. The idea that
women, as a generalisation, have a more emotional attachment to sex than men is something of a
socially generated myth, to my mind.
I have no problem admitting that just as much as I like stories with strong relationships in
like yours, especially if they are well written, I can't help responding too to the stories
I find in Jimka and elsewhere that were designed primarily to provide stimulation and sexual
gratification. I prefer them more than three paragraphs long, though !! Thankfully Jimka
contains an amazing range of both, but especially some of the best-written and hottest M/M
sex and spanking stories anywhere.
IAN:
I'll accept your analysis. I'd also add that there's a similar but opposite "myth"
about the interest of gay men in sex rather than relationships, that it's difficult for some
of us to live up to, or perhaps struggle to overcome... When I think about
what I'd like from a lover or partner, it's more often in terms of cosy snuggles by an open
fire rather than making like rabbits all night, with or without nicely warmed bottoms !
Unfortunately, I can't do gay sex scenes, mainly because, as you now know, I'm not a gay man,
and they would therefore lack sexual authenticity. I can't portray a real, everyday M/M
relationship because I don't have the necessary equipment (if you'll pardon the expression).
Therefore in my writing I go for characters, scenes and situations. Jane Austen (NOT that I'm
equating myself with her !) was asked why she never had a scene in her novels where just
men conversed. Because, she said, she didn't know what men talked about when women were not
present; she had no experience of men outside of the drawing-room situation...
As we're discussing your stories now, can I say how much I enjoy reading about Danny's exploits
and his hilarious attempts to evade the wrath of Jack ! Allowing that it's fiction, though,
I do sometimes feel that Jack seems to be a bit single-minded - while Danny deserves 99% of
what he gets, Jack does seem to side with the awful Tristan a bit much to the (almost deliberate)
detriment of his lover, and hardly ever treats Danny as an adult equal. I think if I was Danny
in real life, I'd have left long ago under those circumstances, however good the sex at other
times... It would be nice if Jack could "mellow" a bit, and
compromise occasionally by seeing Danny's point of view, as if he was "growing" too in
the relationship into less of a tyrant, but that wouldn't allow much room for great plots !
IAN:
I think there's something to be said for the "imply but don't tell" approach, the way
you nicely drew the curtain at the end of The Post Office Job being a very good example.
I did much the same in my own story Paying the Fare, although I justified that to myself
at the time as being because I felt that the progression of the scene wasn't of great interest in
an archive primarily about spanking. Perhaps I was covering for my own possible lack of sexual
ability and experience !! After all, one person's authenticity can be another's impossible
dream, even for us apparently liberated and sexually free gay men...
Oh, I agree, it is a very unequal relationship here, but that reveals my own psychological stagnation/immaturity if you like. I have a deep need/desire for an element of parental control, as well as for emotional/sexual fulfilment. I don't really care about equality in a relationship, at least not in fantasy; how it would work out in reality is a different thing. Danny is a child/man, he doesn't really want responsibility or to be on an equal footing with Jack. He wants to play, behave just as badly as ever he can, have a bloody good time and know there's someone there who's going to keep him safe, pick up the pieces and ultimately still love him. A spanking is a small price to pay for that kind of freedom. Besides, I've always seen spanking as being as much about love as about punishment. And yes, there is a difference between play/sexual spanking and punishment/guidance spanking. How to define it though ? Attitude, intent, the words spoken ?
I once had some bastard on a DP (Discipline Partnership) list I'm in accuse me of promoting
domestic abuse in my Danny and Jack series ! Can you believe it ? They're just stories
for fuck's sake, not sociological treatises ! They warbled on about unhealthy co-dependency
between all my characters...
Your other writing here is quite different in style. The range of deep emotions you write about,
and the beautiful way you handle them, especially in a really intense story like
Moving On, is one of the things that has impressed me
most about your fiction. This story stands out in particular for me.
IAN:
Sounds like someone was itching to show off their psychology or psychiatry training !
I don't know much about these things, but (accepting that we're talking about fiction here) Danny
seems to benefit from the rein Jack tries to keeps on him - albeit with my reservation about
his obvious lack of equality in the relationship. He accepts that he's done something wrong and
even if he doesn't always learn (as fictional characters rarely seem to do) he doesn't hold it
against Jack - he is honestly concerned for what Jack thinks of him. That doesn't necessarily
seem "unhealthy" to me, especially if he knows that he has Jack's ultimate support.
I do really like the way that in one of the latest stories in the sequence,
Desperately Seeking Ally !
you've unusually given Jack a voice and made it clear from his perspective just how much Danny
means to him.
However, The Talisman might not be to all your readers'
tastes, as it contains no actual "in your face" discipline. It might also be considered
rather romanticised by some; hey, so shoot me, I'm a romantic at heart ! I originally had
intended that story to be about a lesbian relationship, but it just didn't come out that way -
I just can't do F/F.
IAN:
How do you approach your writing ? Is it a hobby ? You've sent me some of your other
work that's not in a gay or CP genre and it's quite outstanding. You must be a professional
writer just having fun with this discipline stuff !
There's probably more than a grain of truth in the idea that I use writing as a way of avoiding
contacting with life in any realistic way. At least the internet has enabled me to share some
of the stuff I produce and to communicate with people on a level that real life has never
before allowed me to do. It's horribly addictive, I chat to people all over the world and yet
I can't remember the last time I talked to my next door neighbour, or my brother for that matter
(although my excuse is that he hasn't got an email address).
As far as fiction goes, when I wrote my own admittedly mediocre stories I was completely
intoxicated by the whole process and by the inspiration I felt flowing through me. I was very
surprised, as I'd not written creatively like that since my schooldays ! I just wish I
had good story ideas more often...
Do you find writing easy or difficult ? You make it look so effortless, somehow, in the way
the Danny and Jack stories in particular are written. I've found myself reading them and thinking:
this is perfect, it just couldn't be any better ! Are you inspired to write these
stories, or is it a slog working out every new situation and moment of priceless humour ?
IAN:
I can agree with most of that. I spend a huge amount of time writing emails and building pages
for the site. I'm rarely happier than when I'm tapping away on my keyboard ! As you can
appreciate from our own correspondence, I don't generally write one-line replies to people,
which has been a bit of a problem with the size of my mailbag... It's certainly
more fun writing about my "topic of greatest interest" to someone on the other side
of the world than calling home, so my connection to my family and the real world has suffered too.
I find the whole writing process exhilarating, especially the opportunity to examine yourself
deeply and connect with people on a level that's often impossible in normal conversation. That's
why it's sometimes incredibly hard for me to turn the machine off and go out to work !
I write, re-write, edit, re-edit, re-arrange, read, read again and chop bits that I really love because I know they're not working in the place I've set them. That's a hard thing to do, but sometimes you have to be ruthless. I console myself with the thought that I can use the idea/word/sentence/paragraph somewhere else - never chuck anything away ! Yes, it is intoxicating when you feel inspired and something's really flowing. I hate it when I'm struggling for an idea, or when something refuses to go the way I want it to go. I get really angry with myself, which doesn't help.
BTW, I don't think your stories are mediocre, I enjoyed them a lot and they turned me on !
IAN:
Finally, I have to ask you why you latched onto my gay SM site and approached me so directly
to host your stories. I'm very pleased that you did - yours is exactly the sort of great CP
fiction I'm trying to spotlight.
Jimka is great; I love some, though not all, of the stuff and it's where my little adventure
began, but it isn't a patch on your site. I'm immensely grateful that someone I've never met is
prepared to put in some work on my behalf - without the help of people such as yourself,
my stories wouldn't be so beautifully presented for people to read and hopefully enjoy.
After all, they are hardly likely to get accepted by "Woman's Own" or
"Parenting Weekly", are they ?
To be fair, Jimka was never trying to do the same kind of thing as me. My approach is very
hands-on, sort of "I'm a good friend showing you some of the great stuff I've found",
whereas Jimka doesn't interact with his site or his viewers in any way: all the submissions are
handled by automatic scripts and he almost never replies to emails. There are so many old and
broken links and features of his site that don't work properly that I feel he's stopped updating
and being involved with it due to his real-life commitments. As I've said elsewhere, though,
the sheer size and range of the resource and the number of real experiences on it (as well as
the fantasies) is astonishing, even if it's now made it almost impossible to search or surf
effectively in order to find something specific.
He's also never made any attempt at formatting/editing his submissions to make them look and
read their best, let alone organising or separating fact from fantasy, or good from bad !
As you now know, this sort of detail is very important to me: collaborating with both you and
Paulus to create the most accurate and readable versions of your work has been very enjoyable,
as I take great care over, and pride in, the quality of everything on the site.
IAN:
Thank you !! It astounds me too, sometimes. The site has been a strange adventure,
and it is unique, not by design but just because it grew that way. I feel relatively
comfortable presenting myself so explicitly on the site although I know that many others would
not be. Perhaps I'm not as careful as I should be...
Thanks once again, Cat, for discussing this so honestly and openly with me. This has been a real pleasure. I look forward to reading much more of Danny and Jack's adventures soon !
Legal notice - text and HTML copyright © 2002-2010